An Interview with Napoleon Baby! - INTERVIEW

Napoleon Baby! are gearing up to play at Forage Fest 21-23 November, so they sat down with Bin Juice to talk about the state of the local scene.

Napoleon Baby! have proven that they have international chops, yet on the local scene they are still regarded as emerging artists. While the music industry is truly global due to the ease of access to streaming platforms and social media, there’s nothing quite like performing in front of fans in the place you call home. The band, made up of Daniel Jones, Jamie Leaver and Jesse Gush, have joined the sick lineup of Forage Fest, a new music festival that champions the young, new and emerging artists of Tāmaki’s underground, and is completely free to attend.

A. Tell me about Napoleon Baby! What makes up the essence of the band?

DL. I started Napoleon Baby! a few years ago with a different line up just after Covid, with a bunch of local guys. I had all the songs written, and it wasn't really working — the guys wouldn't leave the comfort of their homes to do anything. I needed a bit more ambition! And then, in fact, we did a gig with Jamie's other band, and my drummer had quit that night. I put a message out saying we had just lost our drummer — and Jamie put his hand up. So I guess we've had a few members in this band, and but now it seems really solid and going in the right direction. We've got lots happening.

JL. I joined just over a year ago. It’s been great — with Jesse, our bass player who joined us four months ago.

DJ. And because me and Jamie obviously aren't from New Zealand, it's good to have a Kiwi still in the fold. We're happy, yeah, even though we don't sound it!

A. Is that because you’re hungover from last night [playing with Ash at the Tuning Fork]?

DJ. Hey, I actually went to the gym this morning as well! And, I have to say, you guys didn't. I had a few Guinnesses last night, but it gives me strength!

A. You recently released an EP — tell me about that process.

DJ. We released an EP called Unworthy Boys six weeks ago. It's an amalgamation of all the things we've been working on recently. And it's been going really well — mostly overseas. I have to say though, lately our New Zealand audience have been listening to it a bit, and it’s picked up, which is great, because we live here, and you probably want people to like you when you live near them.

JL. And it helps with gigs.

DJ. Sure, it helps with gigs. Come on New Zealand! And our single is called Sailors. I think Sailors epitomises what we're all about. It's all very introspective, but also a social commentary. We're quite political. And I feel like when you've got any kind of platform — not saying we have a big platform — you want to express some kind of interest about the world, and interest about social constructs and what's going on in the world, as opposed to just having nothing to say. And I really struggle to listen to music that has nothing to say, whether it's about pain, love, war, whatever. I feel like there's a lot of vapid music over here. There's a lot of wicked music here too, but there's a lot of vapid stuff — like people singing about the beach and summer and that kind of stuff. I don't think that translates globally, because no one gives a shit about that, really. But it seems to do well in New Zealand.

DJ. I think it's important to have something to say and have an identity and to have a passion for what you're doing, instead of just copying a formula that you've seen other people do. Sailors says a lot about that, and what it’s like living in that kind of culture.

JL. All the bands that we grew up listening to as well, they had substance. They had stuff to say. It wasn't just music for music’s sake. There was a bit more to it. And that's why those bands we were into, whether that’s 30 years ago, before that, or even some of the newer bands, like Fontaines DC, are great. We’d definitely say their music is good. Obviously, it's not just middle of the road wishy washy stuff.

DJ. And like, where we come from — Jamie's from London, and my family's Irish, and obviously experienced a bit of the Troubles in Ireland when we were kids. I feel like there's always something interesting to sing about. Life is interesting. People are interesting. And I like to keep our songs as much about that as we can… We’re a bit bitchy in some of them though!

A. Well, sometimes you have to be! And you mentioned that you recently went on tour to Mexico?

DJ. Last year we went to Mexico and did a couple of shows there. And then this year we've done shows around New Zealand. And then we just did some shows with Ash, the Irish band. Ash are really big in the UK and America, and they've been super successful over the last 25 years. It was so wicked that their shows were sold out over here. I wasn't expecting it! We played in Wellington two nights ago, and that was so fun. Wellington's a great town for music, obviously, even though the government's trying to stop that. But it's a really fun place. And then last night was the Tuning Fork. They’re such lovely blokes as well, really nice guys. It was a great crowd.

JL. It was a great experience for us as well. It's the first time we've had that level of support from an established international band. Just good exposure for us. That's our aim. We want to play to some big crowds.

DJ. And the crowd seemed to really like us last night! The feedback was really good in Wellington as well!

A. What is the experience of being on the road in New Zealand like?

DJ. I've done a few tours in New Zealand with other bands as well. New Zealand's a fun place to tour. I like all the little places around the country — New Zealand does small towns really well. It’s a great place to tour around if you have the time. It's better to get in the van and do that kind of thing. But if you don't have the time, that can be quite expensive! Because Air New Zealand is Satan.

DJ. We've played Raglan a couple of times. I really like Raglan. I reckon people go out to gigs way more down there.

JL. It's nice to meet other bands as well, and other people who are into music. I think more so for us back in the UK and Europe, bands tend to hang out a bit more. Here it's a bit more… standoffish.

DJ. But we want to be friends, bands! Yeah, it's just the way it is. Have you toured around New Zealand?

A. I haven't actually. I've only done gigs in Auckland.

DJ. I think you should go to Christchurch! It might be the best for music in the whole country.

A. I did randomly have a friend hit me up, who lives in Dunedin. He was like “your song’s on the radio! We love it — you should do a show down here.” And I hadn’t even considered it.

DJ. Every time we went to the South Island, the local radio made a big deal.

JL. Yeah, yeah, Christchurch — we're playing there later this year. And the radio station down there has already contacted us about going on there and promoting our gig, which doesn't really happen up here.

DJ. You struggle to get any traction in Auckland. They make an effort down there because they're interested in a new band coming to town. I think it's great.

A. What do you think is the reason that it's so hard to break into the Auckland market?

DJ. So many things! You're fighting against a lot of stuff in Auckland. Whatever music you're into, there are people who like it, but really it's getting those people to actually support it and go out and watch it. And you know yourself how hard it is to get people going to shows in Auckland. You have to work really hard. But I think Auckland lacks an artistic social scene as well. And then when you do get the artistic social scene, it's not a friendly scene. There is a cool bunch of musicians here, but I don't know, it just never quite clicks, does it? But, you know, you can mention names of people you hate if you want — I think that's good for radio!

A. Just making enemies everywhere!

DJ. I don't know why it doesn't click in Auckland, but then sometimes it does click.

JL. Obviously, you see the same bands supporting major headliners when they come over internationally, because they're in that scene, or that group, or that clique.

DJ. It’s cliquey. And that’s ok. If that's what they want to be like, then it just means they won't expand themselves, and it prevents them from meeting any new people. But yeah, I suppose Auckland needs to get out of its own head a little bit. But there's some great bands here — some really cool artists…

A. Go on, name them — who inspires you from the local scene?

JL. I like Scran. Their music, and I likde when we played their live show. It was good!

DJ. I really like this band called Half Hexagon. One of their members did the sound for us, at Wine Cellar. And that was really fun for me, because I think they’re a brilliant band. So there are some cool bands here. Can you think any others, Jamie?

JL. Nah.

A. Ok, just the two.

DJ. Just the two! No, there are great ones that we haven't got to play with yet.

JL. We've played with a band called Fool’s Lagoon — a great bunch of lads. Yeah, their music's good, but it's not exactly our cup of tea. It's more that Kiwi soft rock, reggae, pop rock stuff. People like it.

DJ. They're great musicians though.

JL. Yeah, great musicians. Musically, it doesn't grab me.

DJ. There's some cool bands on the lineup for Forage Fest. The bands that we're playing with — Thinking Foxes sound cool. We haven't played with them before. I'm quite look forward to that.

JL. And Pocket Money. I saw them support Ha The Unclear earlier in the year. We tried to get a few gigs with Pocket Money before, but we could never get the dates right. But they're decent — really like their stuff. But Ha The Unclear, they spend a lot of time in Europe, and they're a cool band as well here.

A. So then what gets you excited about being on the lineup for Forage Fest?

DJ. For me, the eclecticism. You've got different things on each night, and I don't know a lot of these artists, and that's exciting for me, because I want to see new people. The fact that you're even trying to do something different, and it's not just the same old festival that’s always going to be the same lineup. It's always the Wine Cellar hipsters who want to go do that kind of thing. I think you've invited maybe four different genres to come to one thing which is wicked, you know. And it's over three nights, so if you don't like guitar music, don't come to the first one. You don't like drum and bass or whatever, don't come to the last one. And a central location helps as well, doing the show at Basement. Yeah, I'm excited.

A. Sick! What advice would you give to new and emerging artists who are thinking of putting their music out into the world? Also what do you see as the future of the Auckland music scene?

JL. I guess we're still emerging. It's just getting out there, and getting your voices heard however you can, and wherever is easiest. Obviously, as a band, gigging is great — it’s the most enjoyable part of being in a band, and having that interaction and that crowd feedback, however negative that might be at times. That's fine and all, but there's a lot of good feedback. It's great to see people getting into the tunes. And hopefully you build from that. It's so easy to put your music out there on social media, Spotify, etc. All the products seem to be diluted because you get so much of it now. So actually getting heard through that forum is very difficult. In my opinion, you almost need to have that backing already to be able to get out there. Very few bands actually get the plays they probably would have got 20 years ago if they'd gone through a more traditional route, where you gig live and an A&R rep sees you, likes you, and puts you through a label, just because of the amount of music that’s out there now. So I think, exposure wise, just get out there gigging. Get in front of people. If people dig it, they'll turn up to the next one and the next one and bring their mates and hopefully you can grow from there.

DJ. I got given some advice by a promotions company…. I won't name them…. we were told to be careful who you align with in New Zealand. “Don't align with any bands who aren't cool.” And that really pissed me off. That attitude has to go. I think we should support each other — get rid of that tall poppy shit and actually support each other. Go watch each other play. Invite them to play your gigs. Just help each other out. And you’d just have so much of a better scene if you all worked together. I'd say, don't rely on funding. You're very lucky to have it, to be honest. But don't rely on it. It can be expensive to go and record, but you figure it out. Just have fun with it. And also, stop singing about the beach! No one cares about the beach. Stop doing it.

DJ. I think Auckland's got so much potential. It just needs a bit of help. I think it needs some smaller venues as well. There’s not many small venues anymore. That's a real shame — even like the Wine Cellar closing down recently.

JL. It’s a real shame, because those venues that are kind of around 100 capacity, they’re few and far between now. Creating another 400-500 capacity venue is probably great as a business idea, I guess, but for grassroots artists, there's not many bands that are at that level who can sustain or bring a crowd and make that financially viable to actually hire a venue that size and make it a good show. Because even if you can pay for it, if only 50 people turn up, it's going to feel empty.

DJ. Maybe if you work together, you put a lineup together, kind of like what you're doing with Forage Fest. It'd be wicked. You’d showcase loads of new artists. I know it’s a nightmare to organise though. Also, venues need to stop charging bands loads of money to play them. 800 bucks to play a small venue in Auckland where you might not even get enough people to cover costs. It's outrageous. So maybe don't charge bands so much money to play, and you'll get more bands in!

JL. In the UK that don't happen.

DJ. It doesn't happen in Canada. It doesn't happen anywhere else. You usually get promoters that put on the shows. And often, as a band, you'll get paid. It's just crazy having to pay to play.

A. Do you have anything coming out between now and Forage Fest?

DJ. We're supposed to have an album out soon. We haven't finished it though! And we’re playing Ponsonby Social Club on the 8th of November.

See Napoleon Baby! at Forage Fest, 21-23 November, at Basement Theatre.